SUMMARY MINUTES OF A WORK SESSION
OF THE CHAPEL HILL TOWN COUNCIL
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 15, 2004, AT 5:30 P.M.
Mayor Kevin Foy called the meeting to order at 5:30 p.m.
Council members present were Ed Harrison, Cam Hill, Mark Kleinschmidt, Bill Strom, Dorothy Verkerk, Jim Ward, and Edith Wiggins.
Council Member Sally Greene was absent, excused.
Staff members present were Town Manager Cal Horton, Deputy Town Manager Florentine Miller, Assistant Town Manager Bruce Heflin, Town Attorney Ralph Karpinos, Town Information Officer Catherine Lazorko, Information Technology Director Bob Avery, Network Telecommunications Analyst Arek Kempinski, Police Analyst Jane Cousins, and Acting Town Clerk Sandy Cook.
Item 1 - Discussion of Technology Issues
Members of the Technology Advisory Committee that were present at the meeting were introduced: Alan Rimer, Roscoe Reeve, Terry Buckner, Steve Irvin, Evelyn Daniel, Brandon Perkins, and Uzoma Nwasu. An interested citizen, Will Raymond, also attended.
Alan Rimer, Chair of the Technology Advisory Committee, explained that the goal of tonight’s meeting was to ask for Council support for moving forward on Committee recommendations for the e-democracy approach to the Town’s website.
Mr. Rimer noted the following:
1. Using the example of the South Columbia Street extension and widening and from the Council presentation on October 11, e-democracy would have fostered better understanding between the University, the NC Department of Transportation, and residents.
2. More transparent and accessible decision-making process.
3. Historical trail for new residents.
· Role of technology in support of e-democracy:
1. Better access to official and unofficial information such as agendas, minutes, and budgets.
2. Improved search capability for documents linked together over time and across issues.
3. Support of enhanced communications and decision-making tools such as GIS, list serves, poll and surveys.
· What we need to do:
1. Work toward strategic deployment of information technologies.
-- Strategic plans for web development, infrastructure and GIS.
2. Gain advocacy of Council and Town Manager in support of goals.
Mr. Rimer noted it is the Committee’s hope that as we go through the process beyond tonight, that we will be able to better understand where costs are throughout the Town and be able to wring out some of those costs by moving away from duplication and looking at policies that may change the way we do business. Then, he continued, if doing that saves, for instance, $100,000, they would like to say where that $100,000 is spent.
Mr. Rimer said that they want to convince the Council that although there is currently money set aside for the Technology Director to hire someone to work on the Town’s website beginning in January, that the Council find some additional funds to hire a consultant to work in parallel to develop a detailed plan based on current and needed infrastructure capabilities.
Mr. Rimer stated that he realized that there were no pots of money sitting around that were unallocated, but that we were “behind the eight ball” on technology, particularly when compared to other communities of similar size. He reminded the Council that during budget deliberations last spring, the Committee drew the Council’s attention to the fact that at that time, Chapel Hill was far behind other communities of similar size and with university campuses. Mr. Rimer said this situation had only gotten worse this past year.
Mr. Rimer stressed that $50,000 was needed now to hire a consultant to jump start the process and do what needs to be done.
Mayor Foy said it seems there are two primary ways to maximize our technology efficiency - one is the face to the outside world and the other is the internal operation. He asked how those two connect under this concept. Will Raymond answered by offering the idea of “open source government.” He stated what that meant to him was how do we unleash the assets we have in Town to allow the citizens of our community to bring their intelligence and creativity to bear on the problems that the Town faces. Mr. Raymond said he was interested in seeing how the Town spends its money, line item by line item, but realistically he probably could not spend all of his time doing that. But, he continued, there may be twenty or more people in Town who would like to spend their time doing that. So, Mr. Raymond noted, what we need to do is unlock this information through our infrastructure and allow these people to look at it and work on it. He added that what he envisions is opening up what we already have so that our community can use those assets.
Roscoe Reeve noted that obviously the technology is an opportunity to allow citizens to communicate with the Town. He noted that technology was very important in terms of how departments communicate with different levels of Town government. Mr. Reeve stated that the Committee had been working to discover ways that information could be shared and stored without destroying forests through the use of paper. He stated that citizens have an expectation that they will be provided with information, documents and records when requested, and e-democracy would provide that.
Mr. Reeve noted that e-democracy could provide citizens with the ability to access Town services electronically, such as registering for recreational activities and paying bills. And, he continued, it would allow citizens to provide feedback to the Town regarding any number of services or topics.
Terry Buckner commented that they do not want to put another layer of technology on top of what is currently being done, and want to avoid having duplication of efforts by employees. She said the purpose of the consultant is to come in and look at how information is being provided and seek smarter, more efficient ways to do so. Ms. Buckner stated the consultant would look at the web itself and how it is being used, which is beyond the Committee’s ability to do. She noted the consultant would work with individual departments to see how information is being provided, and search for ways to make it work better in a web environment.
Mr. Rimer said that many times people attend meetings, such as a zoning compliance hearing, with stacks of paper with notes written by hand throughout the documents. He said that people sit through these meetings looking at page after page of handwritten comments, with no one having a complete set of all the comments. Mr. Rimer said that through the use of open source software, all concerned could mark up the documents, send it back to the department, and in some cases eliminate the need for a meeting. And, he continued, comments from citizens could be forwarded to one source and compiled for the Council’s review. Mr. Rimer said there was any number of ways both internally to make this information work better and externally to communicate better with the public.
Mr. Raymond noted that not everything the Committee is asking for requires that money be spent. He noted that they are also asking for guidelines on how the Council wants information to be provided.
Council Member Verkerk asked how e-democracy would change the way citizens communicate with the Town, and, how would a citizen’s privacy be protected? Ms. Buckner replied it may be that when a citizen comments on issues that it should not remain private, and that their comments should be available for all citizens to see and respond to. But, she added, this type of scenario is exactly the type of direction or guideline that the Committee is asking for. Ms. Buckner said that a citizen does not necessarily send the same comments to all Council members, that one member may receive something that the others do not. She said that e-democracy would open up the communications and share it with everyone.
Mr. Rimer explained about a technique used by the search engine Google, called stringing. He said that if a Council member receives an email and responds to it, then it’s sent to another member and another, and other responses are added, that unless the email is copied to all involved you may not necessarily get all the comments that were made. He said that stringing sorts these emails and strings them together, so that you begin to build a complete file. Mr. Rimer said that this type of process can be used in e-democracy as well.
Mr. Rimer said that e-democracy is relatively new, and one of the things a consultant would do is to show us the whole picture, because none of the Committee members or the Town’s Information Technology staff have the expertise to do that, because it is so new.
Mr. Reeve commented that in the Charlotte-Mecklenburg government, they use a system called “citizens express,” whereby citizens do not comment to the elected body, rather they comment on a particular issue in a specified way so that all of the comments can be compiled, sorted, and shared with officials and citizens alike.
Council Member Kleinschmidt noted that one concern is the cost of entry, and the cost of participation in government to citizens when using this type of technology. He said there are other costs and barriers to participation, such as the time investment. Council Member Kleinschmidt said these concepts are in their infancy and our culture is changing to adapt to “e” everything. He said that it is not just the cost, but the time investment necessary to stay up on all of the technology that is changing “at the speed of light.” Council Member Kleinschmidt asked how do we deal with the increased time commitment by citizens and with the cost of the technology to the Town and to the citizens. He asked if these were questions for a consultant.
Mr. Rimer commented that the cost of entry, in terms of hardware and software, is steadily decreasing. He noted that people make an investment in time to attend meetings and hearings, and what this allows is that any number of people could have access to all comments or documents without having to sit through a three or four hour meeting or several meetings and hear the same information over and over.
Council Member Kleinschmidt said that when you begin to thread all comments on a issue together and others add their comments, that it would appear that some citizens would like to have access to that in its entirely, possibly in real time. He said that this could result in no one getting any work done. Mr. Raymond responded that there is a barrier between the Council and citizens now, and they are talking about removing that barrier and lowering the cost. He commented that “best practices” are not being followed by the Town, such as how we recycle computer equipment when the Town no longer has a use for it. Mr. Raymond noted such equipment could be used to reach citizens who have limited or no access to computers, such as at the homeless shelter or the Northside neighborhood. He commented that four or five computers strategically placed in Northside could link the entire neighborhood.
Ms. Buckner stated her belief that people who would never come to Town Hall to attend a meeting would, if given the chance, comment electronically on issues before the Town. She said it is a less intimidating way for citizens to communicate, especially if English is not their native language.
Council Member Kleinschmidt said he had heard a criticism that this type of system is known as “government by the geeks.” He said he was concerned about how to explain the Town’s position to those who criticize in this way. Council Member Kleinschmidt noted there are still citizens who will not use e-mail.
Mr. Reeve said that the purpose of the technology is to facilitate what the Town does and to make it available on the web.
Council Member Ward said a great concern of his is that in the process of enriching the opportunity for some that we don’t widen the gap for others. He said he did not see that in the list of goals for this meeting, and believed it had to be an equal partner in our efforts to move forward. Council Member Ward said that we need to do what needs to be done, most of which might be training. He said he was happy to hear about how we could get hardware to Northside and the homeless shelter and other places to provide connectivity, so that we don’t have access by “geeks” only.
Council Member Ward said Mr. Rimer had talked about identifying cost savings, and believed that there are costs to this technology advancement. But, he said, he believed we would get better government as a result, which is what we are really paying for. Council Member Ward asked how does a “wireless community” fit into this and coordination with UNC, Carrboro, Orange County and the school system as we move forward, hopefully as one entity? Evelyn Daniel replied that many people who are new to the Town go first to the public library for information about the Town and its history. She said that the Council should begin to think of the Internet as an extension to the Library where many more materials can be made available.
Mr. Rimer said that the issue of collaboration with other entities is an important one and had been discussed by the Committee, and was discussed by the Orange County committee as well. He stated that the Committee includes persons who are employed by the University, the school system and Orange County. Mr. Rimer said that it is critical as we more forward in deploying whatever technology, that all of us to think of collaboration so that there is no expenditure of costs by one that might be shared by others.
Mr. Rimer used as an example a recent grant received for buses, and noted that had the Committee or the IT Department been aware of the grant, the funds might have been able to be strung with other funds to enhance services to the community. As another example, Mr. Rimer noted that the Town is pursuing upgrading of the traffic signal system. He said that this system could be fiber optic and placed underground, so that all along those lines where appropriate wireless connections could be provided to link many sections of the Town. Mr. Rimer said these two examples are just the beginning of what collaboration could do.
Ms. Buckner commented that another opportunity for wireless connections to link the Town is the proposed development of Parking Lots 2 and 5. She asked if any thought had been given to installing the fiber during utility development, or at lest installing conduit for the fiber? Ms. Buckner said these are the kinds of opportunities that should not be lost. She noted that it would save her neighbors a lot of money if there were one wireless connection available in her neighborhood rather than each home having to pay for their own connection.
Going back to the issue of access, Ozona Was reiterated that the idea is access for all. We have to set policy, he said, and with the Council’s help and a lot of hard work, it can happen. Mr. Was said that he did not have the statistics on how many households had computers, but with a wireless community many more would have that free access.
Mr. Rimer, following up on Mr. Was’s comments regarding access, stated he was building a home in Boone, and was participating on a Technology Committee in that community via electronic communication. He stated that 87% of that community had access to computers, with more than half having high-speed Internet access. Mr. Rimer told the Council that every neighborhood, every apartment complex, the entire school system, the public library and the libraries at the university are all connected by wireless access. He said that any where you go in that county, even in remote locations, there is wireless access.
Mr. Raymond, speaking on the costs savings, said he believed there were many opportunities for savings. As an example, he stated that the Town currently has five different wireless phone vendors, with each department and sometimes individuals contracting with these vendors for service. Mr. Raymond said bringing in citizens through e-democracy and making this type of information available, methods could be explored to reduce this cost.
Council Member Strom commented that when he first came on the Council in 1999, he received many letters and just occasional e-mails, and the e-mails would “grip” you. Now, he said, this process has reversed in what seems like a very short period of time. Council Member Strom asked Mr. Reeve about his comments regarding the “citizen’s express” in Charlotte. Did they have to alter any of their public hearing or open meeting rules, he asked, to assimilate that kind of information into the public hearing process? Council Member Strom asked if he was talking about actual testimony that is somehow distilled through staff and then put into the public record, and would have equal value with comments from citizens who actually attended the public hearings?
Mr. Reeve responded that the Town already had in place a process whereby citizens could file an “opinion” about an issue, and their comments become a part of the public record, so in essence such a “value” is already placed on those comments. He said the Council could assign whatever weight to those opinions or comments that they choose. Regarding the “citizen’s express,” that process allows citizens to file a statement as opposed to an e-mail, which is considered an opinion rather than testimony.
Council Member Strom said that “stringing” together of comment after comment allows people to develop thoughts and ideas in a more thoughtful, comprehensive and meaningful way. He asked for more information on how GIS (Geographic Information System) would play a role, adding that all the communities in the County had invested heavily in GIS, and that a lot of what is on GIS is accessible. Council Member Strom asked the Committee to consider that if there was no money available, how could GIS information be used, where are we heading, what should we be aiming for, and what would be the real benefit? He asked the Committee to help the Council understand the power of GIS that might be “locked up.”
Mr. Reeves said that GIS participates on two basic levels, and it is defined somewhat as a decision support tool. He commented that its power is in both showing and analyzing, with much of the analyzing being conducted behind the scenes and can contribute to information. GIS can monitor development, what types or value or housing is being bought and sold, and how much available open space is being lost to the community. Mr. Reeves said the value of GIS is that is gives you graphic, detailed information and can show you the change in a community over months or years, graphically indicating what is taking place. And, he concluded, that is its power.
Mr. Reeve said he would propose that a GIS person be available at all Council meetings so that as the Council discusses issues that may change the face of the Town, that the Council could be shown graphically what the effects might be. As an example, Mr. Reeve noted that during discussion of the widening of Weaver Dairy Road, images could have been displayed that showed where the road was two, three, or four lanes. And, he continued, regarding South Columbia Street improvement discussions, images could have been displayed that showed the actual curvature of the road. Mr. Reeve said this type of information could be used during each meeting, and that is one of the easy things that GIS can do.
Mr. Rimer noted that a citizen could use GIS coming in from the outside to look at different things to help them analyze data and form opinions based on the data that is made available to them.
Mr. Reeve displayed the Town of Carrboro website, specifically the link to GIS. He said that website had an array of choices, including bike paths, current development applications, where facilities are located, and environmental characteristics of Carrboro. Each site has an interactive map which points out places that are of significance.
Mayor Foy verified with Mr. Reeve that all of the GIS information available on Carrboro’s website came from the County’s GIS information. Mr. Reeve noted that Carrboro had added information to what was provided by the County, such as development sites. He said the power of the town is to provide things that the County would not necessarily provide, such as their own zoning, where parks and fields are, and the like.
Council Member Strom asked if what the Committee was envisioning is that e-democracy would provide this type of back and forth access to a greater degree than already exists. Mr. Reeve said that was correct, noting as an example that as people comment on an issue, a GIS button could be provided on the website that they could “turn on” to get a graphic description of what or where they are talking about.
Council Member Strom said that having dealt with consultants for a while now, he has learned that when you give them a broad topic of concern, you get broad answers in return. He said there are three main areas on the table now, and asked if the Committee had discussed what a consultant’s charge should be and how to prioritize. Council Member Strom commented that it seems that the budget and putting information on line may be easier than some of the other things being discussed and may be staff intensive after the fact. Ms. Buckner replied that now departments are contracting out for different web server services, and that needs to be addressed. For instance, she said, how does Parks and Recreation keep their communication vehicles and still collaborate with the rest of the Town? Ms. Buckner said that if all of the various Town department websites worked the same way, citizens would have better access to information. She said the consultant would work with each department to discover what needs to be done, and at the same time the Committee’s infrastructure group would looked at the underlying needs, such as wireless access, fiber, and applications such as open source. Then, Ms. Buckner continued, once the consultant’s report is received all of the information could be pulled together.
Council Member Strom asked if the Committee would be reporting back to the Council. He said that the Council may have different priorities, such as instituting a process to get building permits on-line or sign up for recreational activities. Mr. Rimer said the Committee had prepared a one-page goals and objectives document for the consultant and a schedule that identifies the various steps that should be followed. Ultimately, he stated, we need to meet with the Manager and develop a definable scope. Mr. Rimer said that we do have to attach priorities to what’s important. He stated that the reality is there is a limit on funds, particularly this year, and in order to help the Council make the proper decisions, we need to focus on how the decisions are made and the scale and scope of them, and that is beyond what the Committee can do as citizens.
Mr. Raymond said part of what the Committee is recommending that carries a zero cost is changes in procedures, including allowing the Committee to participate in discussions when new buildings are planned, or software purchased for the buses, or similar events.
Mr. Reeve said the same goes with GIS, noting that skills and knowledge among existing staff needs to be enhanced in order to make use of the system.
Ms. Buckner said that because departments are working independently, they are paying higher costs than necessary. So, she said, the Committee’s hope is that the consultant would bring things together and create an environment where everyone would be a part.
Mayor pro tem Wiggins asked how do the people in Charlotte know that e-democracy is working in terms of when citizens communicate via the Internet to elected officials or the staff, how do they know it is really a part of the decision making process? It sounds good that part of e-democracy is to provide a new way for citizens to participate in the decision making process, she stated, but how does that happen for sure? Mayor pro tem Wiggins said the Council gets hundreds of e-mails now, and it is up to the individual Council member how much attention to pay to it. So, she continued, how do citizens know they are participating if they do not actually visit Town Hall or attend meetings? Mayor pro tem Wiggins said it is her perception that e-mails may not be paid as much attention as an individual who actually comes to a Council meeting. She asked how could the Council value e-democracy as a valid source of information.
Mayor pro tem Wiggins noted that when we talk about accessibility in the Northside neighborhood, remember we have Pine Knolls as well. She noted she wanted to make sure both are included since they share similar characteristics.
Mr. Reeve, responding to Mayor pro tem Wiggins question about e-democracy in Charlotte, stated that “citizen’s express” is information oriented, not dialogue. For example, he said, is there is meeting, where do I vote, where do I get an application for recreation activities, and the like. Mr. Reeve said it is an interactive system of providing information. He continued by saying a question might be what is the purpose of this meeting, and that response could be provided.
Mayor pro tem Wiggins said she thought she had heard it said that this system would provide citizens with the opportunity to be more involved by communicating their thoughts and ideas so they could participate in Town government without attending Council meetings. Mr. Rimer responded that this was a perceptive question, and he does not have an answer because they do not yet know how it would work.
Mr. Irving said a key would be that the Council would have to incorporate it into their dialogue. If there is an outpouring of communication to the Council, but it never surfaces when the originator is sitting at home watching a meeting, then there will be a loss of interest.
Mayor pro tem Wiggins said that the Council receives dozens and dozens of communications, and she is still not satisfied that when she is participating in a Council meeting, that those communications are being taken into consideration. Mr. Rimer responded that right now we don’t know what the success of this process will be. He said the success of e-democracy will evolve over time.
Mr. Perkins stated that there were ways to tract normal usage, such as where citizens are using the system and getting information. He noted this would be one way to tract success.
Council Member Verkerk noted that our Town Information Officer is working on the website, that an efficiency expert would be looking at the budget, and that there is the possibility that a web designer would be hired. She asked how all of these functions would be brought together. Council Member Verkerk said she was also trying to understand how a well-designed website that brings all the departments together is different from what the Committee is proposing. And, has there been a lot of citizen interest in this and will people really use it, she asked. Council Member Verkerk said she personally receives e-mails she has no interest in, and believes that the “love affair” with technology that started in the 90’s may be cooling off. She asked if the Committee had thought about these kinds of issues.
Mr. Perkins said that regarding bringing all departments together under a well-designed website, his reason for applying for membership on this Committee grew out of past weather events like the ice storm in December 2002. He said that getting an up-to-date bus schedule was a “nightmare.” He added that the Town could post “alerts” that citizens could subscribe to that would let them know of any changes in schedules that may affect them. Mr. Perkins said this would prevent people from being stranded should the bus schedules change due to some event.
As an example, Mr. Perkins said that he would sign up for technology or weather alerts, his wife might sign up for updates on art programs. He said people could subscribe based on a self-identified profile so that they did not receive alerts they had no interest in. Mr. Perkins said this was just one way that information could be shared that is not fully accessible now.
Mr. Raymond said the technology is here and it’s just a question of how we’re going to manage it, and the other question is what the Council’s vision is of how it will be used in our Town. He said that in five years, this kind of technology will be just as accepted as any service the Town provides.
Council Member Harrison said it is clear to him that any consultant would need a very carefully crafted scope of work, not just a charge. He referenced an e-mail from Mr. Rimer regarding the budget where he noted that the Council is starting the process three months early this year, which gives you an indication of how awful the prospects are this coming year. Council Member Harrison said that whatever money is spent this year is going to be spent right.
Council Member Harrison, referring to another e-mail from Mr. Rimer about his use of Durham’s website, said if there is such a thing as a “closed source” website, this is it. He said that in his discussions with Durham’s Assistant Manager, he had admitted they are violating their own policy. Council Member Harrison said if you don’t have exactly the type of software and the browser they want, you can’t use their website successfully. He stated he wants to avoid that type of problem here. Council Member Harrison said he wanted to emphasize that we must tell a consultant exactly what is needed.
Council Member Hill complemented the Committee on their work. He said he believed that this is clearly the way the Town needs to go. He said that the idea of saving any money is of great interest right now, and wondered if this consultant would piggyback onto the consultant being used for the budget. Council Member Hill suggested that possibly enough money could be saved so that the consultant could pay for himself. He said if hiring a consultant could be approached in that way, it would be easier to sell the idea.
Council Member Hill, responding to Mayor pro tem Wiggins’ remarks, said he did not believe there was any way to be sure Council members were listening to citizens while at a Council meeting, any more than via e-mail. He did say that e-democracy was another way for citizens to reach Council members and Town government, and he believed that is the way we should go.
Mr. Rimer summed up tonight’s meeting by saying that the next step would be for the Committee, along with the IT Director and the Town Manager, to come back to the Council with something more concrete that the Council can then react to. He said this was the first major dialogue on technology with the Council, and he believes they can now take these comments, work with the Manager, and move forward from there.
Mayor pro tem Wiggins said that Bob Avery, the IT Director, and Mr. Horton, the Town Manager, did not have an opportunity to respond to comments about why departments are acting independently and why there are various contracts for services. She noted they may have thought of some of these same issues, but had not had the opportunity to comment.
The meeting adjourned at 7:00 p.m.