MINUTES OF A PUBLIC HEARING HELD BY THE MAYOR AND COUNCIL OF THE TOWN OF CHAPEL HILL, NORTH CAROLINA, THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 1993

Mayor Broun called the hearing to order. Council Members in attendance were Julie Andresen, Joyce Brown, Joe Capowski, Mark Chilton, Barbara Powell and Arthur Werner. CM Alan Rimer was absent excused; Also in attendance were Town Manager Cal Horton, Assistant Town Managers Sonna Loewenthal and Florentine Miller, Police Chief Ralph Pendergraph and Town Attorney Ralph Karpinos.

Town Attorney Ralph Karpinos noted two minor corrections in the staff's memorandum to the Council. He also reviewed substantive divisions of the ordinance including the prohibition of firearms at polling places and public assemblies, proposed restrictions on small handguns and weapons of mass death and destruction. Mr. Karpinos also briefly reviewed the existing federal exemption permitting the transportation of weapons between locations. He added that the proposed regulations would only prohibit the possession of assault weapons outside of one's own property.

Mayor Broun inquired how the proposed ordinances would make a difference in terms of police enforcement. Mr. Horton said the Police would have additional enforcement tools to handle individual situations. He added that no immediate changes were anticipated.

Council Member Andresen inquired why the Town could not regulate the transport of weapons. Mr. Karpinos said Federal statutes made specific allowances for the carrying of unloaded weapons between locations. Council Member Andresen inquired about situations where weapons were not unloaded. Mr. Karpinos said this might involve a violation of existing laws.

Council Member Capowski inquired whether current law permitted the carrying of a small handgun in a purse or pocket. Mr. Karpinos said if this concealment occurred off one's own property, it would be a violation of the law. Council Member Capowski requested additional information on the confiscation of weapons. Mr. Karpinos said State law permitted confiscation under some circumstances, wherein the courts would need to consider situations on an individual case basis. Council Member Capowski asked whether any of the proposed provisions would permit the confiscation of weapons. Mr. Karpinos said it was generally correct that none of the provisions would permit the confiscation of weapons unless civil proceedings were initiated.

Council Member Chilton inquired whether the proposed ordinances would accommodate the display of historical firearms. Mr. Karpinos said the ordinance would contain exemptions for weapons which could not be fired. Council Member Chilton also inquired about possible exemptions for some semi-automatic weapons used for sporting and gaming purposes. Mr. Karpinos said he could report back to the Council on this matter. Noting that vans and station wagons did not have trunks, Council Member Werner inquired whether all weapons being transported would need to be locked in a trunk. Mr. Karpinos said weapons being carried in a vehicle without a trunk would need to be kept in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment.

Mayor Broun noted that he would call upon Town residents first, alternating between pro and con speakers.

Alice Carlton, a representative of the Chapel Hill-Carrboro Clergy Association said handgun homicides rates in the United States were twenty times higher than other industrialized nations. Ms. Carlton read a resolution from the Clergy association supporting the proposed ordinances. Ms. Carlton also said that as the mother of a first grade student she strongly supported the proposed ordinances.

Herbert Horner said he did not support the proposed ordinances. Mr. Horner also said he did not think the ordinances would reduce crime or danger in the community. He stated that the major problems existed in the court system and lack of adequate sentencing of criminals.

John Pringle, a 22-year Town resident, said he knew how to use guns safely and favored stronger gun control measures. Mr. Pringle expressed concern that guns could be dangerous in the hands of those not properly trained. Mr. Pringle said although the proposed ordinances were quite weak, he understood that the Town was staying within the boundaries of existing State weapons laws. He emphasized the importance of regulating weapons at schools, parking lots and other locations. Mr. Pringle also noted that gun control was not a solution in itself.

Donald Holloway said he was opposed to violence and did not want criminals or violent persons to have guns. Mr. Holloway stated that he had strong reservations about the Council's motives in considering the proposed ordinances. He also emphasized the importance of restricting concealed weapons. Mr. Holloway also stated that semi-automatic weapons were not weapons of mass death and destruction. He expressed concern that words were being used to confuse matters.

Joe Herzenberg said he hoped the Council would adopt the proposed ordinances as soon as possible. He stated that adopting the ordinances was the right thing to do to help police officers to do a better job.

Herman Ogburn said he did not see how the proposed ordinances would offer solutions to the community's crime problems. He noted that although no one under the age of 21 could legally possess a handgun, a great deal of crime was committed by persons under age 21 or persons on parole. Mr. Ogburn suggested that the Town focus on enforcing existing laws to reduce gun-related crimes. He emphasized the need for stronger criminal penalties. Mr. Ogburn requested that the Council make existing laws more criminal-specific.

Barbara Schutz said she strongly supported all five proposed ordinances. Ms. Schutz noted that her husband's cousin had been critically wounded in a daytime shooting incident perpetrated by a young man shooting a gun at an open assembly.

Dr. Dana Windhorst said he thought the term "weapons of mass destruction" referred solely to nuclear weapons. Dr. Windhorst stated that the velocity of a bullet was a function of the weapon's barrel length. He said that bullets fired from weapons with longer barrels were exponentially higher than those fired from smaller-barreled guns. Dr. Windhorst also stated that concealed weapons were essential tools of the trade for violent criminal predators.

He added that longer barreled, higher caliber weapons were more destructive and would result in higher energy wounds. Dr. Windhorst requested that the Council carefully think about the effects of the proposed ordinances.

Margaret Taylor said she wholeheartedly supported all of the proposed ordinances. She stated that the proposed ordinances would send a message that it was possible for a community to take a stand on handguns. Ms. Taylor also said that a large majority of the community's population supported gun control.

Betty Ibrahim expressed concern that the proposed restrictions on small handguns discriminated against women. She also said the proposed regulations would punish innocent, law-abiding citizens.

Ms. Ibrahim said the incidence of rapes in a Florida community declined markedly following the handgun training of 6,000 women. She stated that the possible use of guns by women was an effective deterrent against rapists. Ms. Ibrahim urged the Council not to endanger the safety of women by placing restrictions on the size of smaller handguns.

David Polewka said the proposed new laws would only increase the power of the public sector. He stated that reducing the power of the private sector only made societal conditions worse. Mr. Polewka said the proposed ordinances treated symptoms rather than the disease itself, the economy. He also stated that reducing government spending across the board was the best means to revive the economy.

Lorna Chafe, representing Orange County Peace Action said she supported the proposed ordinances wholeheartedly. She also urged the Council to license guns. Ms. Chafe emphasized the importance of not letting fear or violence escalate in the community. She also noted the importance of giving appropriate sentences to criminals.

Alfred Dolge said although there were several laudable points in the proposed ordinances, there were also problems in the enforcement of the ordinances. Mr. Dolge urged the Council to hire additional law enforcement personnel rather than enact the proposed new ordinances.

Frances Weaver speaking on her own behalf and for North Carolinians for Gun Control, said she supported the proposed new ordinances. She emphasized the importance of the State and its citizens not tolerating violence. Ms. Weaver said it was very important for the Council to promote the health, welfare and safety of the Town's citizens. She urged the Council to support stronger local and State gun control laws.

John Reinhard said all citizens were united in wanting to do something to reduce crime. Mr. Reinhard said he was troubled by the inherent desire to focus solely on guns. He expressed concern that the proposed legislation redefined many legitimate sporting weapons as "weapons of death and destruction". Mr. Reinhard also stated that the desire to prohibit small handguns could result in women being unable to defend themselves against criminals. He stated that although the proposed legislation was well-intentioned, it would not address the community's crime problems.

Paula Upshaw said he could not imagine any good coming from the display of guns or weapons of mass destruction. He said a great deal of harm could result from such displays. Mr. Upshaw said the proposed legislation was a modest move to protect the Town's residents.

David McFarling, a long-time Town resident and serious firearms enthusiast, said some semi-automatic weapons were used for legitimate sporting and gaming purposes. Mr. McFarling stated that assault firearms were used in less than 1/2% of all criminal incidents. He expressed concern that the proposed ordinance concerning semi-automatic and automatic weapons would only impact law-abiding gun owners, rather than criminals. Mr. McFarling said he was willing to show interested Council Members how firearms could be used for sporting purposes.

Lorraine Geiger expressed support for the proposed gun control ordinances. Ms. Geiger emphasized the importance of working for stricter firearms laws.

Bill Flythe said although he was initially staunchly opposed to the proposed ordinances, he had reread them and was not opposed to those ordinances which would be helpful to law enforcement personnel. Mr. Flythe also said he deplored the misuse of weapons. He stated the importance of protecting the rights of law-abiding citizens to own and use firearms. Mr. Flythe expressed hope that the proposed ordinance could be reworked to accommodate the use of sporting arms by law-abiding citizens.

David Hughes read a prepared statement emphasizing the importance of individual rights. A copy of Mr. Hughes' remarks are on file in the Clerk's Office.

Peter Paglia said the proposed ordinances were redundancies of existing State statutes. Mr. Paglia said the proposal concerning "weapons of mass death and destruction" was silly and was intended to terrorize people. He inquired whether individuals would be able to carry small handguns in a portable container or purse marked "gun". Mr. Karpinos said he could respond to this concern in his follow-up report to the Council.

Carolyn Curtis said the proposed ordinances did not infringe on the right of citizens. She stated that all citizens had the right to live free from the fear of being shot. Ms. Curtis said the proposed ordinance offered some protection for all citizens.

John Knapp said he opposed the proposed ordinance and did not think it would work. Mr. Knapp inquired whether the transporting of weapons included carrying one in a holster. He also requested that the staff's follow-up report include information concerning the possibility of installing a larger magazine in semi-automatic and automatic weapons. Mayor Broun said the staff would respond to these concerns in its follow-up report.

Peter Curtis, a family physician and gun owner, said he considered ownership of guns to be a public health hazard. Dr. Curtis also said he was especially concerned about the number of people who irresponsibly had guns lying around their residences. Dr. Curtis expressed his support for the proposed ordinances and more intense gun control regulations.

Mickey Ewell submitted a prepared statement. A copy of Mr. Ewell's statement opposing the proposed ordinances is on file in the Clerk' Office.

Marilyn Ghezzi, a mental health professional, said she supported the proposed ordinances. Ms. Ghezzi said it was especially important for women that the ordinances be adopted as a means to de-escalate violence in the community.

Elizabeth Elder said she supported the proposed ordinances and hoped that additional gun control ordinances would be adopted in future.

Don Hartman, a member of the founding board of North Carolinians for Gun Control, said the proposed ordinances were a first step to supporting gun control in the community.

Kathyrn Rooks & Melissa Semcer, eighth grade students at Phillips Middle School, said it was too easy to get handguns. Both Ms. Rooks and Ms. Semcer said schools were places to learn rather than thinking about whether or not people would be shot. Ms. Rooks and Ms. Semcer expressed their support for the proposed ordinances.

Verla Insko submitted a prepared statement favoring the proposed ordinances. A copy of Ms. Insko's statement is on file in the Clerk's Office.

Martha Drake expressed hope that the Council would adopt the proposed ordinances.

William Brinkhous requested that the staff reexamine devices holding ammunition in semi-automatic weapons. He suggested that the adaptation of weapon magazines could be limited by law.

Andrew Canada said his family and himself supported the proposed ordinances. Mr. Canada also said stronger fines and criminal sentences were needed to discourage criminal usage of firearms. He suggested that the Council establish a committee on public safety to work on innovative ideas to reduce crime. Mayor Broun noted that State statutes limited penalties and fines for weapons violations.

Thomas Tillett expressed his support for the proposed ordinances.

Catherine Dickman, representing the Women's Center of Chapel Hill, said she was aware that the proposed ordinance was not a comprehensive one. Ms. Dickman said the Women's Center was deeply concerned about violence against women.

Sally Russell said she believed the proposed ordinances would work. Ms. Russell said that current laws were not working to protect the community's citizens. She suggested the possibility of putting restrictions on the sale of ammunition. Ms. Russell also urged the Council to ask State legislators to support stronger laws.

Bob Hendry, a Hillsborough resident, said the Town's politics effected the entire county. Mr. Hendry said the proposed ordinances would have virtually no effect on criminal activity.

He stated that the proposed provisions were unenforceable and were meaningless to criminal predators. Mr. Hendry urged the Council to draft anti-crime, rather than anti-gun measures, for adoption. He said that crime, not guns, was the greatest problem facing the community and nation.

Erdman Palmore said it was crystal clear among criminologists that gun controls could and did work in many other countries. Dr. Palmore said gun control measures could help to save lives and make the Town a safer place to live.

Robert Horne, a Carrboro resident, stated that the proposed measures were ineffective and would hinder law enforcement officials and the justice system. Mr. Horne said criminals were constantly going through the revolving door, reentering society due to overcrowded prisons and shortened sentences. Mr. Horne also said he had gathered a petition with over 2,000 signatures emphasizing the need to control criminals, rather than law-abiding citizens.

Grace Bradshear said although she had hunted since childhood, she supported the proposed measures before the Council as a means to control violence.

Carlton Knight submitted a prepared statement opposing the proposed changes. A copy of Mr. Knight's statement is on file in the Clerk's Office.

Russ Parker, representing the North Carolina Rifle and Pistol Association, said the proposed ordinances would make criminals out of otherwise law-abiding citizens. He expressed concern that some of the provisions of the statements in the proposed Section 11-130 concerning semi-automatic weapons were completely unsubstantiated. Mr. Parker stated that most semi-automatic weapons were used for lawful purposes including sporting competitions. He urged the Council not to force people to give up their personal protection and firearms.

Paul Modrich and Bridget Burdette expressed their opposition to the proposed ordinances. Mr. Modrich said the ordinances infringed on the rights of individuals. He stated that Ms. Burdette and himself would boycott all Town business except Tripodi's Delicatessen and would encourage others to do so if the proposed ordinances were adopted.

Mark Penman stated that the former Soviet Union also had very low crime rates. Mr. Penman said that violent criminals typically had gun offenses plea bargained by their attorneys. He also expressed concern that law-abiding citizens might be more likely to be prosecuted than violent criminals under the terms of the proposed ordinances.

Dr. John Rice said he wanted to see a reduction in the incidence of violent crime. Dr. Rice also said he generally opposed the proposed ordinances. Dr. Rice requested that Section 11-___ be retitled alcohol and "illegal substances". He also requested that weapons used for hunting or sporting purposes be specifically exempted from the provisions pertaining to semi-automatic weapon restrictions. Dr. Rice said it was important to protect the right of people to own weapons and use them legitimately. He stated that the proposed ordinances would not effect crime rates.

William J. Meyers said that similar laws in New Jersey and California had very high non-compliance rates. He stated that persons with criminal intent could continue to acquire and learn about weapons in streets and school yards. Mr. Meyers said the effects of the proposed ordinance would not be pleasant for the community.

David Barnes, an Orange County resident, said he had expressed concern to Council Member Werner about the provisions of Section 11-137. Mr. Barnes stated that his only direct access to Town from the north and west was by using Mt. Carmel Church Road and U.S.

15-501. He expressed concern about the practicality of the ordinance language as applied to persons travelling through the Town on the way to firearm practice ranges and other sporting events.

James Hardy, an Orange County resident, said the proposed measures would result in higher crime rates. Mr. Hardy stated that the 1992 Uniform Crime Report indicated that more persons were beaten or stomped to death than were killed by rifles during this reporting period. He noted that the same report noted that 348 citizens were involved in justifiable homicides in 1992, while only 115 incidents involved law enforcement officers.

Michael Cox said he opposed the proposed ordinances. He stated that society had acute problems with lack of moral values which hade nothing to do with gun ownership. Mr. Cox said law-abiding citizens had a fundamental right to self-preservation and self-defense. Mr. Cox said he was prepared to fight to defend these freedoms.

Tom Stark, a Durham resident, said semi-automatic weapons could not fire any faster than other types of repeating arms. He stated that adoption of the proposed ordinance placed sportsmen unduly at risk.

Mr. Stark also said that people needed to be able to handle their own personal safety, rather than strictly relying on law enforcement personnel. He requested that the Council delete the proposed ordinance concerning weapons of mass death and destruction.

Marshall Baxley urged the Council to protect the constitutional rights of citizens. He stated that the proposed regulation of small handguns was arbitrary and would place women at risk. Mr. Baxley said he would defend his personal right to own semi-automatic weapons for sporting purposes. He added that criminals would not obey handgun control laws. Mr. Baxley said the Council's legal problems were just beginning if the proposed ordinances were adopted. He stated that the Town needed to attack criminals rather than law-abiding citizens.

Andrew Bare said four of the five proposed ordinances were redundancies of existing State laws. He inquired why gun control laws restricting individual rights were needed when they would not be an effective tool to reduce crime rates. Mr. Bare said a number of studies had found that gun control laws were ineffective in reducing crime.

Esther Gayle Cates expressed concern that the proposal to ban small handguns would be discriminatory against women. She stated that larger handguns were unaffordable to many people. Ms. Cates said she legally owned a small handgun which she could comfortably handle and use responsibly.

Bob Murdaugh, a Carrboro resident, inquired whether the use of a firearm in self-defense would be a violation of weapons display provisions in the proposed ordinance. Mr. Karpinos said he could respond to this inquiry in his follow-up report. Noting that the technology for semi-automatic weapons had existed since the turn of the century, Mr. Murdaugh said people's behavior, not firearm ownership, needed to be controlled. He stated that existing laws could be used to keep crime rates down.

Paul Powell, a Siler City resident and second degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, said he was a hunter and firearms safety trainer. Mr. Powell also said his children had been properly trained in how to handle firearms. Mr. Powell expressed concern about the Council's motives in requesting the proposed ordinances. He stated that citizens needed to be able to protect themselves since law enforcement officials could not be all places at all times. Mr. Powell said the proposed ordinances would be ineffective in reducing crime.

John Kessler, an Orange County resident, said although the anti-crime intent was a good one, he opposed much of the language in the proposed ordinances. He stated that the proposed ordinance did not contain a provision for transportation of weapons to all-night legal practice shooting establishments. Mr. Kessler said the matter before the Council involved individual liberties rather than a social matter. He recommended that the Council work with an expert task force to draft ordinances concerning anti-crime measures.

Council Member Chilton requested a personal apology to himself and the Council from the citizen who had stated that Mr. Chilton was an enemy of citizens and had questioned the patriotism of the Council Members. Council Member Chilton said he was sworn to uphold the United States and North Carolina Constitutions in his role as a Council Member.

Council Member Capowski requested that the staff's follow-up report contain information about possible retrofitting of semi-automatic weapons with larger magazines. Mr. Karpinos said he could include this information in his follow-up report.

The hearing concluded at 9:43 p.m.