SUMMARY MINUTES OF A WORK SESSION
ON EMPLOYER-EMPLOYEE HOUSING
OF THE CHAPEL HILL TOWN COUNCIL
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 29, 2001, AT 4:00 P.M.
Mayor Rosemary Waldorf called the meeting to order at 4:00 p.m.
Council members present were Flicka Bateman, Joyce Brown, Pat Evans, Kevin Foy, Lee Pavão, Bill Strom, Jim Ward, and Edith Wiggins.
Staff members present were Town Manager Cal Horton, Assistant Town Manager Florentine Miller, Assistant to the Manager Bill Stockard, Planning Director Roger Waldon, Long Range Planning Coordinator Chris Berndt, and Town Clerk Joyce Smith.
Also present was Consultant Bob Knight.
Mayor Waldorf reported that she and Council Members Evans, Strom, and Ward had met during the summer to consider options for proceeding with a downtown master development plan to bring to the Council for this August 29, 2001 meeting. She said that there were three major issues discussed.
· The first issue was if the Town should partner with UNC on downtown ventures.
· The second issue was discussion on the possibility of doing a master plan for development of the downtown. Peter Batchelor of the NC State School of Design made a strong case for doing a master plan, estimated cost of $50,000 to $100,000, taking at least 3 months with a consultant doing the study.
· The third issue discussed was which characteristics of a Request for Proposals for a project for Lot 5 or Lot 2 would be most likely to attract serious and appealing proposals.
Mayor Waldorf said that in discussions with local developers, the consensus was that there was a need for downtown housing, but not for office space, and they thought that a master plan would be worthwhile.
Mayor Waldorf said that the Council members had also discussed what other policy issues, if any, the Council needed to address. She added that the Downtown Small Area Plan and the Comprehensive Plan addressed many of the issues, but were not specific on such things as additional parking needed and what role the Downtown Commission would play in providing it, what types of housing would be needed, what types of open spaces would be desirable and where would they be located. Mayor Waldorf said that Council Member Strom had investigated the possibility of the Town receiving federal money for more planning efforts, but that did not appear to be fruitful.
Mayor Waldorf said she had a discussion with Ted Barnes of Harris Teeter as to whether the store would be interested in locating a Harris Teeter Express store in the downtown, and his response was that there would have to be a marketing study, which would be starting August 30.
Council Member Strom invited comments on more options from the other Council members.
Assistant Director for Finance and Administration at UNC Bob Knight spoke on behalf of the University, stating that the University was committed to determining the appropriate structure and the financing model to make affordable housing units for employees of the University, Town, and Hospital a reality. Mr. Knight said the University employees would be very disappointed if the University did not pursue this possibility. He stated that the University had reservations about the proposal put forth to the University on April 30, 2001, and did not endorse the plan as it was presented. Mr. Knight applauded the report put forth by the Chapel Hill Planning Board on July 2, 2001. He said the University would like the opportunity to explore other development models to enable the University to partner with the Town to get affordable housing for the various employees.
Council Member Brown asked Mr. Knight to be more specific about the problems the University had with the April proposal. Mr. Knight said the University had done some financial analysis of the proposal, and there were many arithmetic mistakes, and financial problems with putting the proposal together in a feasible way.
Council Member Brown asked what kinds of proposals the University would find acceptable other than going through a master plan. Mr. Knight said the University would like to participate in the development of a master plan. Council Member Brown said that she had thought that the University had participated in the April master plan development. Mayor Waldorf responded that there had been participants from the University and the Hospitals as a working group with the consulting group developing the master plan.
Mr. Knight said that the University was interested in seeing a sound proposal for affordable housing, and had not yet seen one.
Council Member Strom stated it would be helpful to the afternoon’s discussion to know that the Curzan Report was based on three distinct parcels, and asked if there were other parcels which the University might be interested in putting on the table as a component of the master plan. He said that one of the matters which would be under discussion would be the cost of hiring a consultant for development of the master plan, and asked Mr. Knight if he had any indication that the University would be paying for a consultant for one of the options to lead a master planning process. Mr. Knight responded that he would have to ask the University administration, that he was not authorized to respond to the question, but could assure the Town of the University’s commitment to the affordable housing for employees.
Council Member Foy said that Option 4 in the Mayor’s report suggested finalizing a specific proposal based on the Curzan Report, but that it sounded like the University did not wish to proceed with the Curzan Report. Mr. Knight responded that was correct.
Council Member Brown said she remembered many master plans being suggested for part of the area under discussion presently, and the Council should remember that this area had already been looked at for longer than 15 years. She wondered if that was what the entities were looking at once again.
Mayor Waldorf said that her clear understanding of the Council goals was to figure out how affordable housing for the entitites’ employees would work.
Mayor Waldorf asked Mr. Knight, since the University was not interested in the Curzan Financial Model, was the University prepared to use the 440 W. Franklin Street property for housing. Mr. Knight said he could not answer the question, but that he did know that the University was looking at a number of options there, and was concerned about the asbestos issue.
Council Member Brown asked how the $9.170 million for renovation and conversion would fit into anything, because that was the amount listed in the bond issue. Mr. Knight again responded that he did not know the answer to the question, but the University might have some flexibility as to how the money was used.
Mayor Waldorf stated that the Council had started this process more than 2 years ago, and it had been delayed considerably because of turnover in personnel at the University. She said the Council was ready to do something about the process or forget it. Mayor Waldorf expressed that she was not in favor of another study.
Council Member Brown asked that the bond money use be looked into.
Council Member Ward asked if the University favored another specific master plan. Mr. Knight replied that the University favored the housing, but the Curzan Report seemed to fall in the middle. He said that a master plan would make sense, to find the common ground of the entities.
Council Member Ward said he was troubled by the cost of the plan and the time to go through the process again. He reiterated that the Council would be interested in knowing the financial commitment that the University could make to a master planning process, in order to better evaluate the ability of the Town to partner with the University or how it might do it on its own. Mr. Knight said he would ask the University for a timely response.
Mayor pro tem Pavão said that affordable housing in the downtown was desirable to strive for. He said in the Curzan Report there was office space suggested for use by the University, but he understood that the University did not subscribe to this as suggested in the Report. Mayor pro tem Pavão asked if the University would subscribe to any office space. Mr. Knight said if there was a proposal that one could see the synergy between the office space and housing, but he knew that the University would not like to have as much office space, and would rather have housing.
Mayor pro tem Pavão said, for the interest in planning, it would help to know the University’s interest or desire for space in the downtown.
Council Member Bateman asked Mr. Knight to have the University convey what time table they would be looking at, and when they would decide the answers. She added that another master plan would be nebulous.
Council Member Evans said she was one of the people who had worked on the downtown plan for 20 years. She said she felt there should be a development plan to show the interactions between sites, and that was what was missing. Council Member Evans said such a plan would show what things would look like in future years. She said that a master development plan would also help the private developer understand what was acceptable and what was being sought. Council Member Evans urged that the downtown be made to work for all of the community.
Mayor Waldorf said she would put the questions into writing for Mr. Knight to take back to the University.
Council Member Strom asked if Mr. Knight would have a suggestion for getting back to the Council with answers to the questions. Mr. Knight said he would have to first talk with some of the University administrators.
Council Member Brown urged Mr. Knight to get a response back by early fall. Mr. Knight said he could not make any promises but said that the University did have a sense of urgency about this issue.
Council Member Bateman said she agreed with Council Member Evans, and that seemed to be the considerations of the plan from the Town Planning Board, which was concise.
Council Member Evans said she was looking for a development plan for the downtown, and looking at what kind of redevelopment should be in the plan as a guide. She said she felt that developers needed to know what the Council wanted and expected in the housing area.
Council Member Brown said the Council was talking about building and development and it needed to talk about preservation and community space, and talk with builders and developers as well. She said she did not see the need for another plan and another consultant and added that the Council needed to talk with the citizens of Chapel Hill.
Council Member Wiggins asked Mr. Waldon to include in his presentation how long a period of time it would take the Council to accomplish the Planning Board’s plan.
Council Member Foy said he was most interested in the statement that said “What we lack, is a study that would provide measures of our capacity to absorb growth; decisions on building height, volume and site coverage; decisions on visual character of streets and public spaces; a growth strategy that identifies short-, medium- and long-range development and creates a time line for future projects, and a statement on the general public policy implications of the master plan.” He said he agreed with this statement and the Council should not be making the decision on the need for office space, but needed to have a plan for the future.
Council Member Strom said he agreed with this same list, and agreed with the 9 items on Mr.Waldon’s list on Page 3. He suggested that the Council work on the 9 items to formulate some kind of a policy for them. Council Member Strom said he was leaning toward some kind of master plan, and could work this into the Development Plan being undertaken at present.
Planning Director Roger Waldon discussed the plan which had come from the Planning Board. He said that what was being suggested of the plan designed by Peter Batchelor was short of a full-blown master plan, which was also workable. Mr. Waldon said what he was suggesting would be shorter in time and less expensive. He said when the use of private property was being discussed, it could be discussed by the community, but the market needed to make the decision about what was and was not possible. He said whatever the Council decided, there had to be limits to the use of a particular property and when it would come on-line.
Mr. Waldon said that the Downtown Small Area Plan was a very good document and provided a framework for what was happening downtown, establishing areas identified for preservation versus redevelopment, and provided for objectives for the downtown. He said another good document was the Streetscape Plan. Mr. Waldon suggested that the Council revisit some of the key areas, with the key ideas and what the expectations were. He said the Council had been very clear about what it envisioned for the downtown. Mr. Waldon said that a physical three-dimensional model of the downtown could be a very helpful tool, which could also be done through computer technology and would probably take only a few months and be less costly.
Mr. Waldon suggested another idea of having a workshop with the Council and other individuals involved. He said that intensity standards and height limits were already in place for the downtown in the Development Ordinance. Mr. Waldon explained that some plans had already been done for Lot 2 and Lot 5 and more preparation would not take much time. He suggested statements about process for developers to understand before they came before the Council, as candidates for private properties, which might provide incentives. Mr. Waldon said it could take at least four to six weeks for the Planning Department staff to put together a 2- or 3-day workshop.
Council Member Ward asked what the scope was of the planned workshop and was Mr. Waldon’s preference to have a computer model or a physical model for the downtown. Mr. Waldon said he had no preference, either could work and would cost approximately $10,000. He said the geographic scope he was discussing would be the two Town Centers zoning districts, from Henderson Street to Carrboro.
Council Member Evans asked how the Council would achieve the results it wanted through a workshop and asked what the risks would be, and wanted to know how the Council could gain the expertise through a workshop. Mr. Waldon responded that he was not sure that would be knowable, based on intensity and development in downtown and if it was elastic. He said a design competition or a charette could be valuable and could produce different kinds of finished product. Mr. Waldon said the disadvantage of a workshop was that the outcome might not be as polished, but might come closer to a consensus.
Mr. Horton said that in the workshop process the dynamic was facilitated by someone who was knowledgeable about what the Town would want and could enforce the parameters. He said the design process was that there was no interchange.
Mayor pro tem Pavão said he was not ready to spend more money for another consultant, and liked Mr. Waldon’s suggestions that the Town already had the documents on hand. He said he liked the charette which worked for the McDade House, and he would rather spend the money on that, with public input. Mayor pro tem Pavão said the Council already had some ideas of what it wanted in the downtown, and it would take time and money to go ahead with another consultant.
Council Member Ward said he felt that a design competition and a workshop would get two different methods, and asked if they might work in tandem with each other, as they could reflect the goals of the community. Mr. Waldon responded that in some cases the requests for submitting a proposal was the same as a design competition, but there was no obligation to go with the proposals submitted. He said a design competition would involve more cost. Mr. Horton added that there would be money offered to offset some of the hard costs incurred, but it would not be a significant amount of money, probably between $5,000-$10,000.
Council Member Brown said she agreed that the Council already had a lot of information, and said she would not like to spend more money until the Council knew what it wanted, adding that the Council might be making all the decisions more complicated. She said she had known downtown Chapel Hill all of her life and she had seen many changes, and there would always be changes. Council Member Brown said she did not think the Council needed to look at the issue for a fifty-year period, but should go back and look at what it had been looking at in the first place, and simplify it.
Council Member Brown asked, since there had been other studies, if there was any interest in picking up on the suggestions from Mr. Waldon for the Council to spend time to develop some goals, and then proceed with action steps 3 and 4. She said she did not feel that the University was planning to make any commitment that the Council would be comfortable with any time soon.
Council Member Wiggins suggested that the Council make the decisions, and invite the University to participate, but not have its decisions determine how the Council proceeded. She asked Mr. Waldon if it would be possible for his suggestions to be written as an agenda item, so the Council could have something to act on. Mr. Horton said it could certainly be written for Council’s action.
Council Member Strom said he was in agreement with proceeding in that fashion, and that action step #3 would give citizens an opportunity to participate. He said he had a preference to use a computer model and not a physical model. Mr. Horton added that the use of computer modeling was far less expensive than the use of physical modeling.
Council Member Evans asked if the Council could design a workshop that would answer the questions raised by Council Member Foy.
Council Member Wiggins said she thought the Council had agreed not to include capacity. Council Member Evans responded that she looked at capacity and absorbing growth as different.
Council Member Strom said he felt the Council would be wasting time exploring what the maximum capacities were for downtown.
Council Member Evans asked if the workshop could identify some of the other issues, in order to get a picture. Mr. Waldon said he did not believe that a workshop could result in plans for short- medium-, and long-range development, especially not in a two-day workshop.
Mr. Horton added that he did not think it would be possible to get results of a study either, because it would depend on the economy. He said one of the big disadvantages would be spending the $50,000 to $100,000 on a more elaborate study, that still would not tell the Council what it wanted. Mr. Horton said if this was accomplished fairly quickly it might also be consistent with current market conditions.
Council Member Foy said when the issue returned to the Council for consideration, he would be interested to know how the Council would handle the University, because it owned some of the land under discussion. He said the University definitely should be included in the planning. Council Member Foy said the Council had to acknowledge that the University land was different than private land downtown. Mr. Horton responded that the Town would need to expect that the University would participate as a significant public property owner.
Council Member Bateman asked whether the undergirding was an answer to the question of whether the Town would get affordable housing or for the process as to what the Council would do with parking lots 2 and 5, or what would the Council do with the downtown area from Henderson Street to Carrboro.
Mayor Waldorf responded that it would disturb her very much to see the housing goal go away, and she hoped there would be some way to keep it there. She said there had been a continued focus on parking lots 2 and 5. Mayor Waldorf added that the Council needed to address whether there should be a public space on either of those properties and said the public space concept should be a design challenge. She said she sensed that the Council wanted a proposal based on Mr. Waldon’s report.
Council Member Wiggins suggested that the proposal be put in the context of getting more housing downtown. Mr. Horton advised that the Council tell the staff to explore the opportunities of affordable housing downtown and all kinds of housing.
Mayor pro tem Pavão reiterated that he wanted to see a good affordable housing component included as part of the mix downtown.
Council Member Brown advised the Council to realize that if there was not support from the University by the next time it looked at the staff proposal, the Council would have to look at housing in the downtown area and the Council should focus on Town-owned property and community space, which she felt was very important.
Council Member Strom said housing was one of the key focuses, but planning for downtown should not be just limited to that.
Council Member Ward said he wondered how it could marry the goals of the Council with public involvement in order to steer the workshops to a conclusion that reached the goals. Mr. Waldon suggested that, given all the discussions, the Council consider adopting a statement of Council goals based on the body of work so far, in order to set the stage.
Council Member Ward suggested a workshop of greater than 2 or 3 days, more like over two weeks, to have time between the workshops for discussion.
Mayor Waldorf asked that the staff give the Council some suggestions about how to involve the public, over a period of time, without having a formal process, but rather just conversations with the Council.
Council Member Wiggins suggested using the term “continued public process,” since the goals had been pulled from other public documents.
Mr. Horton addressed the schedule for the report. He said that much time had been spent for the past several months by the staff on the Development Ordinance and the University Development Plan. Mr. Waldon replied that he was not sure about how much time it would take for a computer model to be ready, but the report could be brought back to the Council as an agenda item within the next thirty days.
The meeting was adjourned at 6:07 p.m.