SUMMARY MINUTES OF A SPECIAL MEETING

OF THE CHAPEL HILL TOWN COUNCIL

 WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF THE UNIVERSITY

 OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL

WEDNESDAY, MAY 5, 2004 AT 7:00 P.M.

Mayor Kevin Foy called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m.

Council members present were Sally Greene, Cam Hill, Ed Harrison, Mark Kleinschmidt, Bill Strom, Dorothy Verkerk, Jim Ward, and Edith Wiggins.

Staff members present were Town Manager Cal Horton, Deputy Town Manager Florentine Miller, Assistant Town Manager Bruce Heflin, Town Attorney Ralph Karpinos, Senior Long Range Planning Coordinator Chris Berndt, Planning Director Roger Waldon, and Town Clerk Joyce Smith.

Item 1 - Presentation by UNC-CH on Proposed Development

 of Carolina North (Horace Williams Property)

UNC Vice Chancellor Tony Waldrop gave the initial presentation and stated that the mission for Carolina North was the same as for the University.  They will both excel in research, teaching and public service, he said.  Mr. Waldrop explained that UNC intended to foster partnerships among Carolina North, industry, foundations, and State and federal agencies. As a UNC alumnus himself, Mr. Waldrop said, he felt it was extremely important that Carolina North reflects the beauty of the main campus.  UNC intended to work with the community to enhance the region as a whole, he said.

Mr. Waldrop told Council members that Carolina North would expand the UNC community by providing a place where people would live and work.  Its mix of uses would include office and research space, laboratory space, housing, and service retail.  Mr. Waldrop stated that the plan was environmentally sensitive, would utilize many modes of transportation, and would be pedestrian- and bicycle-friendly.  It was important to begin developing Carolina North now, he said, because UNC was going through a massive growth phase and expanding its programs in teaching, research and public engagement.

Etta Pisano, a clinician and scientist at UNC, discussed her work in treating women with breast cancer and searching for a cure.  The National Institute of Health (NIH), which had been extremely generous to UNC, had launched a new "roadmap initiative," which focuses on creating partnerships between industry, universities and researchers, she said.  Ms. Pisano told Council members that UNC needed better imaging to support scientists and was starved for research space.  She emphasized how limited her own research program had been by the space she has.  "Frankly, I don't know how we'll succeed unless we get more research space," Ms. Pisano said.

Mayor Foy asked Ms. Pisano if UNC had made a commitment to building a certain number of square feet for the medical school or for her lab.  He also asked if she had a partner and if she and that partner envision having sharing workspace.  How much space would that be, Mayor Foy asked, and would it be a new facility?  Ms. Pisano replied that she had been actively negotiating with a donor regarding funding for equipment.  She was also planning to construct a 20,000 square foot building that would support faculty offices, labs, and staff, she said.  Ms. Pisano stated that she did not yet know who would fund that, but she was actively working to find partners and had been talking with big name pharmaceutical and imaging companies.  Ms. Pisano expressed optimism about the probability of success.

Mayor Foy asked about a timeline.  Ms. Pisano replied that the plan was to have the project funded and built within five years.  She stressed that she had been successful in raising money over the past five months, having recruited a large donor, and that the UNC Provost had been talking about matching contributions for faculty.  Ms. Pisano pointed out that "money raises more money," and noted that a donor can be very important to obtaining investments from private industry.  Mayor Foy verified that Ms. Pisano's goal was to move her lab off campus to Carolina North.

Donna Bryant, Associate Director of the Frank Porter Graham (FPG) Child Development Institute, told Council members that FPG was currently crunched for space in four buildings in four separate locations.  Carolina North would provide the opportunity to bring their teams together and enhance their efficiency, creativity and collegiality, she said.  Ms. Bryant explained that FPG hoped to build a state-of-the-art early childhood center at Carolina North that would have research and training activities.

Council Member Hill determined from Ms. Bryant that FPG envisioned public/private partnerships in the future and was pursuing those possibilities.

Council Member Ward verified that the local School System would be FPG's likely partner.  Ms. Bryant commented that there had been much interest in new partnerships and new opportunities for studying ways to bring three- and four year-olds into the elementary school system.

Council Member Ward determined that FPG works with children from six weeks to five years of age.  Ms. Bryant explained that about a third of them have diagnosed learning disabilities and another third qualify for subsidies.  She stated that now would be an ideal time to create a model early school, which some have called "The First School Initiative."

Mayor Foy asked if it mattered where at Carolina North the facility would be located and at what phase it would be built.  Ms. Bryant replied that everyone, of course, wanted to be in the first phase.  She pointed out, though, that FPG requires a playground about nine acres large.  So the planning committee was trying to determine where FPG would best fit, she said.  Council Member Kleinschmidt ascertained that FPG anticipated funding this venture in four or five years.

Margaret Dardess, Interim Dean of the School of Public Health, stated that the current building does not even begin to address the School's space needs.  This is the "century of public health," she said, noting increases in obesity, diabetes, and bio-terrorism threats.  As the leading school of public health in the nation, Ms. Dardess said, UNC was increasingly being called upon for service, practice, and research in public health, preparedness, and prevention.  She stated that the School had people scattered all over Chapel Hill in 50,000-80,000 square feet of rental property.  They could consolidate those activities at Carolina North and have greater coordination, cooperation and efficiency among activities, Ms. Dardess pointed out.  She described activities of the Public Health Institute and Public Health Leadership Program, and explained that those would be located at Carolina North as well.  This would afford those programs opportunities for synergies with other programs, such as FPG, Ms. Dardess said.

Council Member Kleinschmidt asked if such synergies currently existed or if distance had prevented them from occurring.  Ms. Dardess replied that there would be more efficiencies and opportunities to collaborate if they were in the same vicinity.   Council Member Kleinschmidt verified that the School would not abandon its activities on the main campus but would consolidate its programs that are currently scattered around.

Mayor Foy verified that Active Living By Design, a part of the School of Public Health, was involved with planning for Carolina North.  Mr. Waldrop stated that Active Living By Design had been involved early on and had agreed to continue working with UNC.  Mayor Foy inquired about their recommendations.  Mr. Waldrop replied that they had recommended showers in buildings so that people could exercise during the day and had discussed the bike and pedestrian walkways.

Mayor Foy mentioned that the Town had been talking with Active Living By Design regarding the difficulty that those using public transit were having crossing Airport Road.  He asked Mr. Waldrop if he had discussed this with Active Living By Design.  Had they discussed the impact that Carolina North might have on Airport Road, Mayor Foy asked.  Mr. Waldrop replied that they had not, but that they certainly intended to discuss that.

Council Member Verkerk noted that most of the Humanities students would remain at the main campus where the Humanities are taught.  Mr. Waldrop agreed that classroom teaching of undergraduates would not be moved to Carolina North.  But, he added, Carolina North might help meet some of the research project demand.  Mr. Waldrop pointed out that the Humanities could also be involved at Carolina North via a new Institute for Renaissance Computing.  UNC hoped that Carolina North would provide space for that in the long term, he said.

Mr. Waldrop stated that Carolina North would include staff and student housing.  He emphasized that UNC had not made commitments to anyone for space at Carolina North, except to recommend setting aside property for an elementary school.  Any partner who would be located there would help the University's mission of research, teaching and engagement, he said, and that partner would already have a sponsor at UNC.  Mr. Waldrop said that University work had spawned 22 companies in the past five years.

Council Member Kleinschmidt asked where those companies were located.  Mr. Waldrop replied that many new companies are "virtual at first" but that some have office space in the Research Triangle Park.  Others were "still being birthed in the sense that they don't have their own space," he said, and they might have a faculty member involved in the company and some management staff.  Mr. Waldrop remarked that one or two others had not been successful.  Council Member Kleinschmidt clarified that Carolina North would be a place where such companies could incubate.

Council Member Kleinschmidt determined that many times start-up companies have faculty members who remain involved or pay research dollars to the faculty member to continue researching in that area.  So, one way or another, that relationship could be long term, Mr. Waldrop said.  Council Member Kleinschmidt verified that a company could construct a building there as long as there was an active relationship between that company and the faculty member.

Council Member Kleinschmidt expressed relief that Carolina North would not turn into a park of private companies.  But, he asked, how would it become the employment engine that UNC had described?  Mr. Waldrop replied that there would also be partnerships with companies that had not started up with the University but which had developed relationships with faculty members.  Council Member Kleinschmidt noted that a large percentage of universities around the country had tried this partnership model and had not become successful.  The academic units had fizzled because money had stopped pouring in, or the campus had never been built, he said.  Mr. Waldrop agreed that there had been some failures, but he pointed to the success of the Centennial Campus in Raleigh.  He stressed the importance of not developing a research park with the sole purpose of putting companies there.

Mayor Foy explained that he had talked with Mr. Waldrop earlier in the day and that Mr. Waldrop expected to answer questions throughout this presentation.  Mr. Waldrop agreed, but pointed out that some questions would also be answered by the presentation.

Council Member Greene noted that half of the 200 or so research parks that had started up in the U.S. had failed.  About half of those that had succeeded had dramatically reconfigured their mission, she said.  Council Member Greene expressed concern about the possibility of ending up with a bunch of empty buildings that the University won't know what to do with.  Mr. Waldrop emphasized that Carolina North would not be a research park, but an expansion of the UNC campus. Research parks do not have housing and academic programs, he said.  Mr. Waldrop emphasized that UNC's mission was to meet academic needs.  There will be partnerships, but that it not the predominant part of this, he said.  Mr. Waldrop remarked that the 100 successful parks had carefully planned how to interface with their universities.  Council Member Greene pointed out that the current goal was to determine whether or not Carolina North could succeed.

Mr. Waldrop commented that UNC had continued to succeed and grow, and did not have empty buildings but was crunched for space on its main campus.  He described Carolina North as a plan to expand UNC at one location rather than taking a helter-skelter approach.  Mr. Waldrop stressed the difference between a research park and an academic campus of a university.

Council Member Kleinschmidt asked Mr. Waldrop to point out the difference between what UNC was proposing and a research park.  Mr. Waldrop explained that the FPG Child Development Institute was not something that one would find in a typical research park. Council Member Ward asked for more information about the students who would be at Carolina North.  Mr. Waldrop said that UNC did not plan to move the classroom education of undergraduates.  But there would likely be a substantial number of undergraduate students involved in research project and internships, he said, and there would be many graduate and post-doctoral students.

Mr. Waldrop noted the Horace Williams property on a map and pointed out the surrounding neighborhoods.  He said that UNC wanted to work with the community to make Carolina North the best possible plan.

Council Member Greene asked for a further expansion of what "redefining our engagement with the community, the region, the State, and the world" meant, pointing out that "community" had been omitted from the slide.  Council Member Greene also asked Mr. Waldrop to discuss the Horace Williams Committee's report and to comment on how seriously UNC intended to take it.  It would be nice if UNC would acknowledge that report when it makes presentations, she remarked, noting that the Horace Williams Citizens Committee had worked for more than a year and had developed a great deal of thoughtful work.

Mr. Waldrop noted that earlier speakers had discussed things that UNC wanted with regard to training and furthering education regarding community issues.  He said he would address the Horace Williams Committee's report later in his presentation.  Mr. Waldrop then displayed a map of nearby roads.

Mayor Foy inquired about the development's odd shape, and asked if a road going straight through had been part of the plan.  Mr. Waldrop did not know.   Mr. Waldrop discussed the railroad track and Bolin Creek, and reviewed the timeline for creating the draft plan.  He stated that UNC was looking at the Horace Williams Committee's report, and had discovered differences as well as overlaps and similarities.

Council Member Kleinschmidt asked if UNC planned to discuss the areas that did not overlap.  Mr. Waldrop replied that he was not prepared to do that tonight.  Council Member Kleinschmidt pointed out that a great deal of thoughtful analysis had gone into that report by people with expertise.  He suggested that UNC say so if there are areas where it disagrees.  Mr. Waldrop replied that he was not ignoring the report.  He thanked Council Member Kleinschmidt for the suggestion. "So, will we hear something or not?" Council Member Kleinschmidt asked.  Mr. Waldrop replied that he would respond if that was what the Council was requesting.  Council Member Kleinschmidt explained that it would be respectful to respond, noting that some Committee members had strong relationships with UNC.

Continuing his presentation, Mr. Waldrop stated that UNC had been discussing a 50-70 year development but the amount of development would depend on their programmatic needs.  They hope to develop in seven phases, which would take 7-10 years each and result in five different communities or neighborhoods, he explained.

Council Member Harrison asked if UNC would need bonding authority from the General Assembly to pay for infrastructure.  Mr. Waldrop replied that UNC was not looking to the State for resources to directly fund Carolina North.  He would have a more definitive answer later on, he said.

Council Member Strom asked what resources UNC anticipated needing for infrastructure for Phase I and beyond.  "What is the infrastructure development cost that you are using to judge the fiscal structure here?" Council Member Strom asked.  Mr. Waldrop suggested that Doug Firstenberg, a UNC consultant with Stonebridge Associates, address that question.  Mr. Firstenberg said the estimated cost over a 50-year timeframe would be $100 million in today's dollars.  That would build the basic "horizontal infrastructure," he said, and would include roads, sewer and water.  Mr. Firstenberg explained that the plan for the overall project would be a self-liquidating model.  UNC would not go to the State for financing and cannot drain resources from Carolina North, he said.  Mr. Firstenberg told Council members that the program would repay itself over the years through a variety of revenue-generating measures.

Council Member Strom determined that Mr. Firstenberg could not answer at this point what it will cost to do the investment in infrastructure to get Phase I off the ground.  Mr. Firstenberg replied that he hoped to come back in June or July with more specific answers to such questions.  Council Member Strom asked how many dollars UNC had committed thus far from sources other than the State.  Mr. Firstenberg replied that they had not yet sought any commitments for funding and were about to develop a business plan that would explain how the project would work financially.  Council Member Strom asked if that meant there were no hard commitments and dollars sitting in some account somewhere for Carolina North.  Mr. Firstenberg replied that right now it was zero, but that planners were confident that they would come up with a business plan that would achieve the self-liquidating goal.

Mayor Foy clarified that the $100 million was the estimated cost of building the infrastructure for the entire plan.  He added, though, that it seemed like it would cost $1-1/2 million in today's dollars to build out the eight million square feet.  Mr. Firstenberg replied that UNC had not estimated the eight million square feet vertical costs.  Part of the reason that this was a 50-70 year open plan was that the pace of development would be driven by the financial realities of when people have the resources to finance it and by programmatic needs, he said.

Mayor Foy inquired about when infrastructure would have to be in place to actually build something there.  Mr. Firstenberg described a "sequenced development" of opening some of the project up and doing the infrastructure associated with that as an initial investment.  Then, when that reached a certain point of absorption, they would start the next phase, he explained.  Mayor Foy asked about building a road that was not part of a particular phase.  Mr. Firstenberg replied that there were a couple of major roads that would have to be built.  But the plan would allow incremental investments in terms of infrastructure such that one can measure that investment and also put enough things in place to carry the burdens, he said.

Council Member Ward noted that there would be sizeable costs for the Town associated with providing services to Carolina North.  To what extent, he asked, was a revenue stream being created to assist or cover those costs?  Mr. Firstenberg replied that the fiscal equity issue needed to be thought through and analyzed with Carrboro and Chapel Hill to realistically estimate the impacts and achieve fiscal equity.  Mr. Firstenberg added that he envisioned many of the buildings being on the Town's tax rolls.  He thought there would be revenue streams to address the costs, but it was too early to say whether they would address all of the costs, he said.

Council Member Greene requested more information on the University of Virginia (UVA) projects with which Mr. Firstenberg had been involved.  Mr. Firstenberg explained that he had begun working on that research park in 1991-1992, having been brought in to develop a business plan because the project had not been working.  He had come up with an entire new program and the project since then had been very successful, Mr. Firstenberg said.  He described several of the buildings in that research park and discussed their relationships with UVA.  Mr. Firstenberg pointed out that the project was not mixed use.  With regard to UVA's Norfolk project, he had been brought in to help zone the property and develop a model to build the initial infrastructure, he said.  Mr. Firstenberg explained that the Norfolk project had begun in the late 90s, but had slowed down in the last couple of years.  Looking at that today, he said, mixed uses would have been better.

Council Member Greene wondered if Mr. Firstenberg was saying that he hoped to learn from the mistakes of these other places.  He replied that there are always things that one can do better even when successful.  Council Member Greene asked if it was correct that there would be no bond money used for Carolina North.  Mr. Waldrop replied that none of the higher education bond referendum money was slated for Carolina North.  But, he added, he did not feel comfortable giving a definitive answer tonight on how it would be funded.

Council Member Harrison asked if UNC was envisioning private developers paying to build, or extend, or relocate a major road on this property.  Mr. Waldrop replied he could not answer that question, but noted that UNC's plan was before the NC Department of Transportation (NCDOT) and UNC was waiting for feedback.  Council Member Harrison asked where that was at NCDOT.  Mr. Waldrop offered to find out. 

Council Member Strom asked about the plan and fiscal source for cleaning up the hazardous waste site.   Peter Reinhart, UNC Director of Environment, Health and Safety, replied that the University had a $10.5 million funding plan with the Department of Environment and Natural Resources for cleaning up the site over an eight-year period.

Mayor Foy asked when that would begin.  Mr. Reinhart said that it had become effective on January 9, 2004, and that UNC had already begun the work.   

Council Member Ward clarified that the funding was not in any way connected with development at Carolina North.

Mayor Foy inquired about the work that had begun.  Mr. Reinhart explained that the first step was a remedial investigation report.  Mayor Foy asked how they knew that it was an eight-year cleanup.  Mr. Reinhart replied that State law requires that it be cleaned up within eight years and that they had beaten similar deadlines.  The State gives UNC three years to complete the remedial investigation report, but UNC expects to complete it in one year, Mr. Reinhart said.

Mayor Foy asked when UNC estimated beginning the actual physical stage of the cleanup.  Mr. Reinhart replied that some additional ground water monitoring wells might be in place by the end of the year and that groundwater cleanup would begin next year.  Source remediation would be three or four years out, Mr. Reinhart said, adding that the next step would involve source removal.

Council Member Ward asked if there would be restrictions on use of that land and the monitoring wells after the eight years.  Mr. Reinhart replied that it was hard to say now what restrictions might be at the site.  But the monitoring wells should not interfere with any activity on the surface, he said.  Council Member Ward verified that the public would be involved at every stage of the process.  Mr. Reinhart said that the public could contact him at 843-5913 or at [email protected].

Council Member Strom asked how much had already been invested in the planning process and what was the source of those funds.  Mr. Waldrop said that he was not prepared to answer that tonight.  Council Member Strom asked if those were public documents.  Mr. Waldrop said that he did not know.

Mayor Foy asked Town Manager Cal Horton if the Town would follow up and get further answers from UNC to some of the questions that Council members were asking.  Mr. Horton replied that UNC had indicted they would provide additional information.  He offered to provide a transcript of tonight's questions to UNC if the Council wished, and Mayor Foy recommended doing that.

Mr. Firstenberg displayed drawings of Carolina North and described the gateway entrance, main drive, points of ingress and egress, relationship to Airport Drive, and the main road from Carrboro.  He explained that Phase I represented a little more than one million square feet of development, including 700,000 square feet of office, lab and research space, 300,000 square feet of residential space, and about 70,000 square feet of service/retail.  Mr. Firstenberg emphasized that the retail area would not be designed to attract outside interests but to meet the needs of the people who are there.

Mayor Foy asked if the gateway area being shown would be Phase I.  Mr. Firstenberg replied that it would be a logical place to start, from a planner's perspective, but that they would address the airport issues later in his presentation.  Mayor Foy asked why it was a logical place to start.  Mr. Firstenberg replied that the airport land had already been disturbed and was level.  And there would be the opportunity with the gateway entrance to make a statement about the quality of the development and the types of users, he said.  Also, coming off Airport Road makes that the least expensive place for the project to start, Mr. Firstenberg pointed out.

Mr. Firstenberg said that UNC intended to have surface parking at the initial phase and replace it with structured parking in Phases VI and VII.  This would make it denser without ever having to expand it out, he said.

Council Member Ward commented, "So there are about two people listening in this room who are ever going to see structured parking on Phase I."   Mr. Firstenberg agreed that it would be about 50 years before Phase I would have structured parking.

Council Member Verkerk asked if there was a plan to use public transit.  Mr. Firstenberg replied that they were envisioning upgrading bus service on Airport Road for the earliest phases.  The rail line would be a potential long-term transit solution, he said.  Mr. Firstenberg explained that roads were being designed to allow efficient bus circulation throughout the project.  Council Member Verkerk asked about the ratio of parking to students and employees, noting that within ten years main campus would have one space to every two employees or students.  Mr. Firstenberg offered to answer that question later in his presentation.

Mayor Foy stated that it would be helpful to know this phase by phase, since Phase I might be built "while those of us who are here can see it and also experience it."  He noted that, from the Town's perspective, transportation was the primary issue with regard to Carolina North.  Mr. Firstenberg agreed to provide that information but said that he did not know it off the top of his head.  He agreed that UNC and the Town should discuss all such issues.  "How we juggle priorities, how we deal with fiscal realities, are things that we need to be doing together," he said.  Mr. Firstenberg said that he would be pleased to provide the information and sit down with the appropriate people to start working through those issues to come up with the right plan.

Mr. Firstenberg said that one of the obvious things to do during the initial phase is to make it convenient for people to get there.  Enhancing the public transit that already exists will encourage its use, he said, adding that this was another advantage of starting on the Airport Road side.  Council Member Greene pointed out that convenient parking was not as important to the Town as parking that will not overflow and which supports the Town's goal of more use of mass transit.

Council Member Kleinschmidt asked where the parking reductions had been made between UNC's prior presentation and this one.  Mr. Firstenberg said that it had been reduced from 19,125 to 17,000 spaces.  He pointed out that the parking ratio had been 3 to 3-1/2 spaces per 1,000, and was now dropped to 2-1/2 spaces per thousand.  The goal was to drive it down even further, he said.  Mr. Firstenberg noted that park and ride was part of the solution, but it must be done in collaboration with the Town.

In response to questioning by Council Member Kleinschmidt, Mr. Firstenberg stated that the odds were that parking reductions would come in future phases because that is when the decks will be there.  Council Member Kleinschmidt replied that UNC's traffic plan really was the same as it was six months ago and would be the same for the next 10-15 years.  Mr. Firstenberg replied that UNC and the Town must work cooperatively to come up with ideas to reduce parking.

Council Member Kleinschmidt, referring to the three-partner model for transit that the Town, UNC and Carrboro have, asked Mr. Firstenberg if he had not been able to come up with a plan using that model.  Mr. Firstenberg replied that if a private developer wanted to do Phase I, there would be 20-30% more parking than is being shown in UNC's plan.   He added that by working together, the partners should be able to achieve park and ride sooner than that.  There must be discussions about how to enhance bus service immediately and about any other mass transit ideas, Mr. Firstenberg said.

Council Member Kleinschmidt remarked that Mr. Firstenberg's answer had just underscored how important it was to know how much parking was related to this part of the development.  Then everyone could understand exactly what the impact of each phase would be, he said.  Council Member Kleinschmidt pointed out that the idea of 17,000 parking spaces still frightened many people.  He could not imagine why UNC could not take that number and project the increase in bus service and how would it be funded, he said.  Mr. Firstenberg replied that taking parking down to 17,000 spaces was what the University felt they could do independently.  They have a desire to do better, he said, and he proposed that the Town and University work together to get that number as low as possible.  Council Member Kleinschmidt pointed out that there were tools that could help provide some answers.  Mr. Firstenberg agreed, adding that he was happy to continue looking at them.

Council Member Ward noted that the buildings in Phase I, as they are, would violate Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) setback requirements.  Mr. Firstenberg agreed to address the airport issue later in the presentation.

Council Member Hill determined that the net impact of Phase I would be about 2,100 employees, plus residents.  He asked where else in the country something of this magnitude had been done in the middle of a town.  Mr. Firstenberg replied that it depends on your definition of "inside a town."  There had been much urban redevelopment and "redensifying" around town centers, he said, but it would be difficult to find a situation like UNC.  "How many major research universities have 1,000 acres of undeveloped land so close to their core campus," Mr. Firstenberg remarked.

Mr. Firstenberg described UNC's plan as unique. Council Member Hill agreed that everything about Carolina North was unique.  He stressed that the Council was looking for a unique approach to the transportation and parking as well.  Council Member Hill proposed that using standard parking ratios would not lead to a unique solution.  But, he added, he understood why they were being used at this phase.

Mr. Firstenberg displayed a rendering of Carolina North at full build-out, including the three major points of access, a redesigned Airport Drive, and a north-south road that would connect to Weaver Dairy Road and provide another means of getting to I-40.  He noted that the rail line had been identified as a potential means of mass transportation, and he indicated logical transit stops.  Mr. Firstenberg also pointed out where the residential areas would be.

Council Member Harrison proposed that having parking at Carolina North, such as exists on main campus, would mean having a third fewer parking spaces at Carolina North.  Mr. Firstenberg replied that it would be about 11,000 parking spaces, if comparable.  He pointed out that the nature of uses of the spaces was very different.  Council Member Harrison verified with Council Member Verkerk that the ratio on main campus included residential parking.

Council Member Verkerk described the proposed parking scenario as "disturbing."  People will take the bus if you don't build parking, she said.  She agreed with Council Member Hill about the need for a unique solution.

Mayor Foy noted that Mr. Firstenberg had referred to a model from the 1970s at Princeton, the 1980s and 1990s at UVA, and others, and said that all of them would do something different.  So now, he stated, we have the most advanced idea that other people are emulating.  But, Mayor Foy noted, even the University acknowledges that what has really stood the test of time was the main campus, which has been there for 200 years.  He said the campus has grown in an organic way, and many people say that's what they like about UNC.

Mayor Foy expressed disappointment that McCorkle Place would be replicated at the gateway but not flourish throughout the development.  There appeared to be resistance to taking what was essential about main campus, he said, noting that UNC at Chapel Hill had been forced not to become a big parking lot like many university campuses.  This had not been and easy decision, said Mayor Foy, noting that there had been a great deal of resistance.

Mayor Foy remarked that the problem was not just one of how to get financing.  There are also psychological barriers to overcome, he said, noting that some people will not set foot on a bus.  Mayor Foy said that the Town was trying to prevent a situation where people will say 20 to 30 years from now that it could have been done better. McCorkle Place was the right model, he said, but he pointed out that putting some buildings around green space does not create a McCorkle Place. Mayor Foy acknowledged that the Council did not know the solution.  But they did know that it should not be "like a Disneyland of the University," with 17,000 parking spaces there, he said.

Mr. Firstenberg stated that UNC would also like to reduce the parking since having more parking does nothing to enhance the plan.  "But we have to be shepherds of a plan that's viable," he said.  Mr. Firstenberg noted that UNC was trying to develop only about 25% of the overall land.  The main campus model was a great one, but the mix of uses at Carolina North had nothing to do with the main campus per se, he said.  Carolina North will not include undergraduate teaching, and will not have dorms but a different kind of residential component, Mr. Firstenberg pointed out.

Mayor Foy suggested that an easy first step would be to take 10,000 parking spaces and put them in a satellite lot somewhere off I-40.  And make a commitment that the University will not advocate for the widening of Airport Road, Weaver Dairy Road and Estes Drive, he said.  Mayor Foy stated that there were serious commitments that the University could make but that those presented did not strike him as "terribly ingenious" ways of dealing with the problem. Putting the cars on I-40 would be one way to make a serious commitment that Carolina North will not be a magnet for cars, said Mayor Foy.

Mr. Firstenberg stated that UNC and the Town need a transportation plan that would work over the long term.  And that needs to be done by all of the partners together, he said.  Mr. Firstenberg said that park and ride was a clear part of the solution.  But traffic experts from the Town, University and State need to challenge themselves to determine a plan that will work over time, he said.  Mr. Firstenberg remarked that park and ride was only part of the answer.

Mayor Foy commented that what UNC has put on the table is not particularly forward thinking.  He pointed out that it is fine to say that all will be working together, but there was a certain amount of inertia that is created once the plan is on the table and that plan has 17,000 parking spaces on site.  Mayor Foy said he was asking, why is that?  He stated it seemed to him that it is because that's the reality that UNC is looking at from an economical standpoint.  Mayor Foy added that he believed UNC wanted to work with the Town, but he did not see much creativity in any kind of transit or in the design.  Mr. Firstenberg stated that the plan showed how to accommodate the things that they had thought of.  But it is not a plan to implement possible solutions, he said.

Mayor pro tem Wiggins asked Mr. Waldrop if UNC was ready to rethink the parking issue and the transportation plan if University, Town and State representatives could discuss it.  "Are you that open to working together," she asked.   Mr. Waldrop replied that they were, noting that part of that was being before the Council tonight and having this dialogue.  Transportation was clearly a big issue and everyone needed to sit down and work out a plan that would work for all, he said.

Mayor pro tem Wiggins asked if everyone would come together prepared to make concessions with the ultimate goal of greatly reducing parking. Mr. Waldrop replied that UNC was firmly committed to the overall type of development that they have identified.  But, with regard to issues related to transportation and fiscal equity, they were eager to sit down and discuss how they could do something that is accepted by the community as well as the University, he said.  Mr. Waldrop expressed appreciation for Mayor pro tem Wiggins's comment that this would take compromises on both sides.

Council Member Strom stated that he wholeheartedly agreed with Mayor Foy's line of questioning.  One of the key principles in the Horace Williams Committee's report was that this be designed as a transit-oriented development from the outset, he said.  Council Member Strom stated that rather than that he saw a sea of parking.  With regard to the request to coordinate and cooperate, he noted that several uncertainties remain in the mix that caused citizens to feel anxious.  Council Member Strom pointed out that all have the same goal of achieving a mutually beneficial plan that will attract employees to UNC and the Town and which will meet the goals of the Town's Comprehensive Plan.  He expressed apprehension, however, that the process could be "rug-pulled" because of prior experiences where UNC had done that.  Council Member Strom emphasized the importance of establishing ground rules that would establish trust and create a safe environment.

Council Member Hill noted that he had heard UNC Chancellor Moeser pledge on the radio that his administration would not seek relief from the Town's zoning authority.  He asked if UNC was willing to agree before negotiation begins to specifically abide by the outcome, even if a third party was successful in going to the Legislature and getting the authority to circumvent the Town's zoning.  Council Member Hill described that as "the essential element that is missing in all the rhetoric about having two or three equal parties sitting down and having a conversation."  Mr. Waldrop pointed out that the partners also include Carrboro, Orange County, and the State of North Carolina.  UNC was committed to the process and intended to work through it in the fashion that Council Member Strom had described, he said.

Council Member Strom replied that Mr. Waldrop was "really skipping around the question."  He stressed that the question was an important one because the Town had recently adopted a resolution saying they need to be careful about allocating resources.  And the citizens and Council want to know that there is true engagement and that the rug will not be pulled at some point in the process, he said.  Council Member Strom asked if UNC would commit to abiding by the outcome of the type of conversation with Chapel Hill that they were saying was necessary to getting the best plan.  Mr. Waldrop pointed out that UNC was a State agency and represented the citizens of North Carolina.  If all partners involved in the project are sitting down together and negotiating in good faith, then he "would respond in the affirmative to what you've said," he replied.

Mr. Waldrop asked to be allowed to continue with his presentation because he wanted to show some of the changes that UNC had made in the plan.

Mr. Firstenberg displayed slides which indicated the major green spaces and natural buffers.  He pointed out the self-contained, walkable neighborhoods and the pedestrian-friendly network.  Mr. Firstenberg displayed a street grid and noted that it touched one of the shallow points of the landfill but did not touch the chemical waste site.

Council Member Kleinschmidt verified that there were only minor differences between the old and new grid.

Mr. Firstenberg listed several elements of the transportation plan, noting that the same measures were being used today.  He again stressed the importance of engaging in dialogue with the Town to develop additional measures.  Improvements will run over a 50-year period and will be phased in as more burdens are created, he said.

Mr. Waldrop stated that changes in the plan were in response to what UNC had heard from the Horace Williams Committee and others.  A number of individuals had recommended a school site on the property, he said, and the School System had chosen 12-14 acres close to another elementary school.  Mr. Waldrop recommended that the land be given to the School System for that purpose.  This school would be in addition to the one that the FPG Institute might develop, he explained.

Mr. Waldrop noted that some had expressed concerns about the major boulevard coming off the intersection of Estes Drive and Airport Road and coursing through the property.  UNC had changed that to dead end, he said, and had also jogged the development farther north to provide a considerable additional buffer between the Northhaven neighborhood and Carolina North. Mr. Waldrop explained that some had suggested making the development more compact by going higher than three stories. So UNC now has a plan for two- to five-story buildings with the taller buildings located more interior to the development, he said.  He noted that housing would include mixed-income levels to reflect the salaries of those who work at Carolina North.  The plan included 48 acres of green space within the development, with 192 acres of developed space, Mr. Waldrop said.  In addition, UNC would recommend that 170 acres of stream valleys for Bolin Creek and Crow Branch be set aside permanently, Mr. Waldrop explained.

Mayor Foy inquired about the rationale behind not recommending all of the green space for permanent conservation.  Mr. Waldrop replied that UNC's administration and trustees must be stewards for the future of UNC.  They do not know what the needs will be 50-70 years from now and do not feel it would be good stewardship to tie that up, he said.  Mayor Foy asked if UNC would be willing to make a written, binding commitment not to develop that land for 100 years.  Mr. Waldrop replied that they would commit to not developing that land during the course of developing Carolina North, which might take 100 years.  But UNC would not make any commitment beyond that, he said, because they need to leave flexibility for future administrators of UNC.

Council Member Hill pointed out that UNC and the Town were linked.  "People want to come to Chapel Hill because of the University and people want to come to the University because of Chapel Hill," he pointed out.  Council Member Hill mentioned that the region had recently been placed in non-attainment for air quality.  Noting traffic congestion, affordable housing, stormwater, and fiscal equity issues, he said that the quality of life in Chapel Hill was basically under attack.  Carolina North will exacerbate all of these conditions, Council Member Hill stated, but it could help solve these problems for everyone.  He proposed that the University house more students at Carolina North because that would take cars off the street and students out of the housing market, and would help affordable housing.  This was the kind of thinking that he would like to see everyone do, he said.

Council Member Hill pointed out that the Carolina North plan did not reflect the fact that the Horace Williams Airport was still there.  He described that as "the elephant in the room."  Council Member Hill said that the focus 50 years from now was not as important to him as what Phase I looks like.

Council Member Greene agreed that the airport needed to be discussed.  "It's really hard to believe that we've been here nearly three hours and we're pretending like the airport isn't there," she said.  Council Member Greene asked if UNC knew whether the percentage of people living there at build-out would be greater or less than the percentage of people who will go there to work or attend school.  "Will it help or hurt the housing problem?" she asked.  Mr. Waldrop replied that the housing at Carolina North would not solve UNC's housing problems.  He did not have figures on the ratio of people living and working there, he said, but this was not the only thing UNC was looking at to solve issues related to employee housing.

With regard to the Horace Williams Airport, Mr. Waldrop stated that UNC was in full support of making sure that the Area Health Education Center (AHEC) remained.  UNC was committed to not closing the airport until they have found an alternative site for AHEC, he said, adding that RDU would not be that alternative.

Mr. Waldrop stated that UNC believes it can move forward with Carolina North, with the airport in place, until it finds an alternative location for AHEC.  He indicated areas of Carolina North that could still be built with AHEC in place.  UNC believes in the integrity of the plan as it is and does not intend to change it, he said.

Mayor Foy verified that UNC did not intend that Carolina North and the airport would coexist permanently.  He also ascertained that UNC anticipated the airport being closed as some point.

Mayor Foy asked about the process for relocating AHEC.  Mr. Waldrop replied that UNC was actively looking for another site that could serve AHEC within a distance that would be acceptable to the individuals who serve the AHEC program.

In response to a question from Mayor pro tem Wiggins, Mr. Waldrop explained that UNC had been evaluating how it would phase the development and how it would present that to the Town.  Mayor pro tem Wiggins ascertained that the master plan would not include the airport.

Mayor Foy asked what UNC planned to submit to the Town and when it was planning to do so. Mr. Waldrop replied that UNC would revise the plan based on tonight's feedback and hoped to return to the Board of Trustees during the summer.  After meeting with the Board, UNC would come back to the Town with the overall draft master plan, he said. Mayor Foy asked if that would be a formal application that UNC would ask the Town to approve in one way or another.  Mr. Waldrop indicated that was correct.

Mayor Foy asked if that request for approval would come to the Council during the September-December 2004 time period.  Mr. Waldrop replied that this was the plan, but he noted that things can change.

Council Member Greene asked how that would correspond with the decision the Legislature would have to make before January 2005 on whether or not the airport will remain open and for how long.  She also asked if UNC intended to ask the Town Council to make decisions about land use on the area that is now the airport when they don't know how long it will stay open.  Mr. Waldrop clarified that UNC would need to have a statement from the Legislature regarding the airport before they could come before the Council with a plan.  He said that a Legislative Committee had been formed to begin discussing this issue.

Mayor pro tem Wiggins spoke in favor of an honest dialogue among the stakeholders before anything official was done.  She pointed out that the process to make this a better plan would take much more time than that unless everyone stopped what they were doing and worked on it full time.  Mr. Waldrop replied that the important next step would be to define the process for how conversations would begin and decide when UNC would officially come before the Town.

Council Member Kleinschmidt stated that the plan presented tonight had not shown a transit-oriented development.  He asked how the opportunity to discuss and develop that corresponded with UNC's rushed timeline in the face of the obstacles.  Mr. Waldrop replied that it was important to agree immediately on moving forward with a transportation plan.  Council Member Kleinschmidt remarked that there were tools available that would have allowed for a more transit-oriented development.  It was not satisfying to hear that UNC had not developed a transportation plan because it had not been able to marshal the resources of the Town, he said.  Council Member Kleinschmidt noted the UNC did not have the zoning authority to develop its plan, "but you go ahead and decide what you want to do. So what does it matter if you don't actually have your ducks in a row about financing of the transportation plan before you decide on what kind of transportation plan you think this development really needs?"  Mr. Waldrop agreed that zoning would have to be UNC's first step in engaging with the Town.  He suggested not looking back but committing to working together and moving forward.

Council Member Ward asked if it was correct that sometime before the end of the year UNC would come before the Council asking for approval of a master plan that looks somewhat like what they had seen so far.  Mr. Waldrop replied that there would first be a zoning request and there would be changes in the plan.  Council Member Ward commented that he could not imagine committing the Town to a 70-year build-out.  He asked the Town staff what approving the master plan would entail.

Town Attorney Ralph Karpinos replied that the Council could not approve a 70-year plan, and could only give a vested right under current law for a period of five years.   "The Town can only give them approval for a plan that protects them from a change in the ordinances," he said.  Mr. Karpinos explained that this issue had come up during a previous discussion of this property.  There had been some discussion at that time about getting the law changed to allow the Council to give a longer vested right and guarantee, he said.  But, Mr. Karpinos pointed out, "under the current law the Council cannot approve a master plan that would be valid for 70 years and preclude a future Council from changing the ordinances."

Mr. Waldrop explained that he had never meant to imply that UNC would ask for 70 years of development.  He had thought the Council wanted to have a feel for the overall plan as UNC came forward with individual parts, he said.

Council Member Ward noted that the Council had sent a number of questions to UNC in advance of tonight's meeting.  Some of those had not been answered at all, he pointed out.  Mr. Waldrop offered to provide additional information if someone would let him know which questions had not been answered.

Council Member Ward verified that UNC would ask the State to protect some natural areas.  He asked to be informed about what was being proposed so that he could offer suggestions about wildlife corridors and buffers.  Mr. Waldrop agreed to arrange that.

Council Member Strom stated that the logical next step seemed to be to produce a master plan for Chapel Hill Transit.  Then everyone would understand what the key underpinning infrastructure has the potential to be and how much it would cost, he said.

Council Member Strom noted that it would take a year or more to create that master plan.  Also, knowing the fate of the airport was critical when planning for something of this scale, he said.  Council Member Strom described himself as "mystified" over the pace at which Carolina North was being pursued. "Why not wait and do the Chapel Hill transit master plan together, cooperatively create a real vision for the future, and then figure out what kind of capacities and density the community can tolerate at this site rather than guessing at it," he asked.

Mr. Waldrop pointed out the Council had heard earlier in the meeting about three University projects with immediate needs.  There was not unlimited time to start meeting the needs of the University and community, he said.  Council Member Strom pointed out that everything UNC does at Carolina North must be compatible with their mission just as everything the Council approves must be compatible with the Town's capacities and master plan.  "It seems like given our charge to protect health and welfare and property values…we have to do our Chapel Hill transit master plan," he said.

Mayor Foy noted that several citizens had signed up to speak.  Mr. Waldrop thanked Council members for their comments and suggestions.  He said that he believed strongly in Carolina North and would work with the Town to make it happen.

· Comments by Citizens

Michael Collins described the traffic congestion that already exists at the intersection of Estes Drive and Airport Road and the dangers to those who cross the road there.  He proposed that everything in UNC's plan would make that intersection worse.  Mr. Collins expressed support for the Council's suggestion that UNC begin again, and urged Council members not to accept any proposal that does not adequately address parking, traffic, and transportation issues.  Mr. Collins endorsed the points the Council had made about the plan being presented before issues had been resolved.

Lauren Easthom said that UNC's proposed north-south road would increase traffic at the intersection of Airport Road and Weaver Dairy Road Extension, which already is congested.  She expressed concern over how emissions from so many cars would affect the Town's already compromised air quality.

Northaven resident Al Burk, a member of the Horace Williams Citizens Committee, thanked UNC for the revised plan.  He also thanked Council members in advance for carefully and deliberately considering the new plan after the fate of the airport has been decided.  Mr. Burk noted his support for UNC's long-term goals of research and partnerships.  He expressed appreciation that UNC planned to move the development away from the Northhaven neighborhood.

Mr. Burk suggested that UNC answer the questions that Council members had posed in their April 26, 2004 letter to the University.  He also requested that the development be a real campus rather than an automobile-focused technical park.  Also, Mr. Burk said, the 40-acre hazardous waste landfill needed to be addressed as part of the development.  He recommended that neighborhood buffers be permanently protected as well.  Mr. Burk remarked that "no one on the ground in the State of North Carolina has ever been harmed by a civil aircraft in 100 years of flying," and he listed several factors in favor of airports.

James Carnahan, speaking on behalf of the Village Project, stated that his task had been made easier by the observations and comments that the Council had articulated.  He underscored Council members' comments about separating the form of the development from its activity.  Mr. Carnahan mentioned the "multiplier effect" with regard to the number of jobs this will create and the negative impacts on air quality and transportation.  He said that the Council's request for more time was important because the impacts of this development will be widespread.  Mr. Carnahan requested that Chatham County be included on the list of stakeholders.

Joe Capowski stated that there was much to praise about Carolina North.  One of its greatest assets is that Tony Waldrop is leading it, he said.  Mr. Capowski expressed concern, however, about the references to early funding from the National Institute of Health.  He pointed out that if the NIH "takes a hit," then Chapel Hill could go into recession.

Mr. Capowski expressed concern about 17,000 parking spaces.  The transportation goals were excellent, he said, but their implementation was going in the wrong direction.  It was crucial to minimize parking, to keep the neighborhood impact low, and to enable the success of mass transit, Mr. Capowski stated.  He advised Council members to get sound justification for 17,000 spaces or reduce it substantially.  Mr. Capowski asked the Town Council to use its negotiating skills and regulatory position to cut the parking in half.

Patrick McDonough, a Carrboro resident and a transit service planner with TTA, noted that the proposed parking would be higher than on UNC's main campus.  Mr. McDonough recommended that the Town immediately seek a new funding source for fixed guideway transit in Orange County.  He also suggested that the Town and Orange County adopt a resolution in support of establishing a new regional funding source.  The Town should then seek support from all in the region to get to Phase II and to connect that up to Carolina North using the existing rail corridor, Mr. McDonough said.  He encouraged the Council to change one lane each way on Airport Road into bus only lanes.  "Look at park and ride opportunities near rail corridors so that later on they can become rail stations," Mr. McDonough said.  "Look at Oxford, England's transit system."

Diane VandenBroek, a Horace Williams Committee member, expressed concern about the proposal to move the section of Carolina North that would be east of Sewell School Road northward.  Doing that moves it away form the Northhaven neighborhood but creates a non-continuous natural area, she said.  Ms. VandenBroek noted that the proposed main road from Weaver Dairy Road Extension would cut the natural area in two.  UNC would be putting more natural area inside the development, she said, but it would be better to leave it on the outside where it would be more continuous for animals and people to use, she said.

COUNCIL MEMBER STROM MOVED, SECONDED BY COUNCIL MEMBER HILL, TO RECEIVE AND REFER COMMENTS TO THE MANAGER AND ATTORNEY.  THE MOTION WAS ADOPTED UNANIMOUSLY (9-0).

The meeting adjourned at 10:35 p.m.